Following up from the article Amway products price list comparison we recently wrote, we received several interesting comments in response regarding Amway's product quality and a comparison.
We welcome and appreciate feedback, even if it is critical. We don't claim to be right 100% of the time, and if you can prove us wrong (yet to happen) we will gladly admit or ammend what is written.
Nor are we out to destroy Amway, only to report independent facts and opinions of those not bought by Amway. If there is/was a way for everyone to easily make money with Amway, I would be writing about it and doing it. However, if the honest truth paints these companies and business opportunities in a negative light then I apologise if reality offends you.
One of our readers, Stef, commented:
"Why are you comparing only one product? How about you look at say DishDrops or window cleaner or any other L.O.C. product? ...you will realize that the price would be much cheaper that in retail with even or better quality. What do you REALLY know about the products?"
A common argument from many IBO, and a fair question. Lets address Stef and those with like minded ideas.
I encourage people to do their own research on any and all products, to come to their own conclusions. As previously mentioned past research done by others covering the majority of products has indicated Amway products are 50% more expensive on average. The one comparison detailed by me - XS Energy drinks, was because XS drinks were one of the only products marketed direct to me, and is listed in the Network 21 presentation as 1 out of 8 of the "most successful exclusive product lines". In the article linked above we provided data proving XS was 18% more expensive than a similar brand name energy drink.
If one of their most "successful product lines" is overpriced, what hope do their "less successful" products have? Very little.
I have an open mind, I made the mistake of initially assuming Stef to be correct. With such an adamant statement as "the price (of Amway's dish washing detergent) would be much cheaper" who wouldn't believe that? Naturally I further investigated with a curious mind.
The results of the research show Stef's claims were incorrect, by a surprisingly massive margin. I am amazed (amused, and a little worried) someone even made such a claim when there is such easily available and damning evidence to the contrary. If you are going to make such wild and ignorant claims please research them first, it would be foolish not to!
Dishwashing Detergent Prices:
Amway:
DISH DROPS Concentrated Dish washing Liquid - 1 Litre is $18.85 Australian Dollars (AUD).
Competitors:
Earth Dishwashing Liquid - 1 litre is $3.27 AUD (concentrate not specified)
ZIFY Dish washing Liquid Concentrate 5 Litre Bundle Pack is $17.90 AUD
That is more than 5 times cheaper than DishDrops for both products per volume!
Apart from the name brand products listed above, generic products are even cheaper, and do the same job.
These prices were obtained with only 1 minute research online from 2 sources. It is even cheaper if you spent some time and researched other sources and bought in bulk like you do with Network 21 programs.
As already stated there possibly are Amway products that are cheaper (I'm yet to find one). This was not the argument, the claim was that 'Dish Drops' is "much cheaper". 1 Minute research showed that it is over 5 times more expensive per volume, and when you compare the concentration levels, over 50% more expensive per load! (Edit: Please see comments below for details)
Stef stated the products are "even or better quality". That is your opinion, and only your opinion, not fact
Independent Business Owners associated with Network 21, Amway, Quixtar etc when displayed with proof that their products prices are more expensive will often counter argue that their products are "better". They use this flawed argument to convince you, perhaps against your better judgement, to sign up as a distributor.
I personally use one of the cheapest detergents available (that are essentially identical in ingredients), and they clean my dishes spotless 100% effectively, with all the major positive attributes and factors one looks for in such an item: It contains environmentally friendly and non-skin-irritating ingredients, leaves my dishes smelling "spring fresh". All for over 80% less cost!
So unless DishDrops can do more than clean dishes 100% effectively (which is impossible, unless perhaps the detergent can cook me dinner too?) then I don't see how it could be "better". Unless it tastes better? However we don't advise drinking detergent. Even if it did taste better, that is still their opinion, not fact. Opinions of weak minds are easily manipulated.
Like I said, you should apply simple logic, most importantly do your own research and not believe everything your Amway rep preaches to you, especially when it comes to comparing products and prices. Carefully research any claims before investing time and money.
So Stef, that is what "I REALLY know about the products".
No doubt there will be some critical responses received. Please try to use logic in your arguments. I have learnt over the years though to never argue with a fool, they will lower you to their level and then beat you with experience.
Why are people like Stef (as well as any official distributors reading this article) so convinced the everyday household products sold in these marketing schemes are "cheaper and better", when all it takes is 1 minute of research to prove otherwise? Unfortunately we're yet to find facts of anything to support Amway, but have discovered a wealth of information on marketing scams. Ask yourself why is that?
With proof freely available and knowing competing products are cheaper and equal quality, why would you continue to support it? It does not make sense. Some suggest it is a cult or brainwashing? An extreme answer, and I don't wish that to be the case, but if there is another reasonable explanation please inform us. Why do people make such ignorant untruths (or intentional lies)? A few minutes of research gives you all the answers (not a matter of opinion, but hard evidence). There is no logic to their statements. Dear distributors, It is never too late to pursue a better business opportunity, and stop throwing your money away.
The facts represented in this one article alone would be enough to make anyone sane and intelligent to think twice about signing up. Or at least question the products and statements made by these organisations.
If you are roped into some kind of Network 21 conference, presentation or shown "the plan" keep in mind you can't argue with someone who doesn't use logic. Do they have so much blind faith they are unable to acknowledge irrefutable factual data that their products are neither better or cheaper?
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About Me
- Mr Million
- I've dedicated my life to money making ideas. Have sorted through the junk and happily make a living. I enjoy keeping the community informed on all fresh ideas, news and scams.
28 Comments:
First of all, you claim to use "independent" sources, but your link is to Sydney Schwarz, who admitted to a court he was being paid by Amway competitor Proctor & Gamble to help them in their case against Amway. Not exactly independent.
Then you claim to do your own price comparison ... but then don't do any such thing! Concentration levels clearly make a difference in a price comparison, yet without doing so you claim DD is 5 times more expensive.
I attempted to do a proper price comparison with ZIFY but I've been unable to find anything out about the product. Googling finds no manufacturer, no ingredients list, nothing. Certainly nothing to indicate how concentrated it is. Indeed the websites that sell it say "converts to $1.14 per 320ml retail pack" ... which is no concentration at all!
With regards the "Earth Choice" product I can again find no information regarding concentration levels and it's ingredients are not even close in comparison to Dish Drops.
Dish Drops has a recommended use of 4.5ml per sinkload of dishes and contains numerous skincare ingredients as well as dish washing ingredients.
You claim dishonesty amongst Amway reps, yet here you are claiming "independent" status for price comparisons (more than a decade old!) done by someone who was on a competitors payroll and your own "price comparisons" which in reality do no comparison at all.
Please, show a little intellectual honesty yourself.
Excellent article.
Yes, IBOs are taught to justify their involvement with Amway and to justify the cost of the products they use. Ironically, once the dream of easy and early retirement goes away, so does the desire to purchase Amway products.
IBOs don't mind paying the premium price when they believe that the residual income will be rolling in. When the reality sets in, suddenly Walmart or Costco seems to make more sense.
Funny how that works.
IBOFB, If you're going to discount Sydney's research because he works for a competitor, we should also ignore your comments because you are paid to promote Amway. I will ask you again to disclaim this in your posts in future, otherwise we will not be as willing to post your comments, if at all.
As I keep repeating, the best independent research is done by the individual, not by an Amway rep, a competitor, or even this blog:- an independent party.
To quote you it "converts to $1.14 per 320ml retail pack... which is no concentration at all!"
You have made a mistake. The above conversion quote makes no mention of the detergent concentration, it is stating the cost per volume.
We can agree the concentration levels should be taken into account as a factor of value, and I have added this factor to the article.
Another one minute of research found the concentration levels.
Directions for use:
Zify 15ml per 5L water
DD 4.5ml per 5L water
Zify at $17.90 (you get a 5 Litre bottle!) will get you 333 loads per $17.90 spent
DD at $18.85 (only 1 Litre) will get you 222 loads per $18.85 spent
Zify gets you 50% more (111 extra) loads of dishes done for around 1 dollar less!
Need I say any more? Why do you deny the facts so hard (apart from the fact you are paid by Amway)?
And here come the standard flawed "better" arguments. I already discussed how DD could not possibly be "better".
But you insited on saying "(Earth Choice's) ingredients are not even close in comparison to Dish Drops". Ha! "not even close" to what?
Do they both get the job done? Yes! Anything additional such as slightly different ingredients is trivial.
You say the DD detergent "contains skin care ingredients"? Who cares? Dish washing water is filled with all kinds of bacteria, scum and grease, why would anyone want to put their bare hands in the water filled with such nasties, and additionally make their hands go all wrinkly? I highly recommend protective gloves. Even Amway's Safety Data Sheet for Dish Drops states for spillage - Personal Precautions: "Wear appropriate personal protection equipment (respirator, gloves, goggles, and/or faceshield, boots, protective clothing)"
First Aid Measures: "Skin Contact: Rinse skin thoroughly with water."
Wow they must be some fantastic "skincare ingredients" if those are the safety precautions one must take.
How can you question my independent stance on these issues, when the "Independent" blog links on your page link to Amway IBOs. Someone paid by the company is not independent from the company, and obviously has a bias. Why don't you also link to truly independent sources (not MLM affiliates / paid to promote the organisation) such as this blog if you dare to claim truthful independent credibility?
Nr. Million,
IBOfightback claims he is not paid to promote Amway. So far I have not yet seen any actual proof that he is paid, although it would not surprise me if he was paid.
However, his willingness to lie cheat and do anything within his power to defend Amway and Network 21 certainly gives one the impression that no reasonable person would go to such lengths to defend a business that he himself could not succeed in.
As for product concentration, it's another perfect example of how IBOs use ways to justify their actions and their products.
In real life, customers see right through the facade and go to Walmart. Customers don't care about buying the "cadillac" of vitamins or buying concentrated dish soap. They look at the lowest prices and buy it. Why do you think Walmart is wildly successful?
@Joecool
IBOFB may not be officially employed as public relations (That was not what was meant by the implication). To clarify what was being insinuated was that because he is an IBO who sells and promotes Amway products, he is therefore someone who benefits and profits from positive promotion of said products and gets paid (+sales bonuses etc) by Amway to sell these products. If he demotes any items he will potentially lose profits. Not necessarily paid a salary to solely promote products, but a "salesman" who gets paid by Amway, and is clearly biased through this association.
IBOFB, as one of the most outspoken and publicised IBOs, may I ask how much money you earn in income after tax and all expenses?
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! IbendOverForBuddies schooled again!
I posted some product price comparisons on qblog a couple of years ago.
There were several products that compared favorably.
However, one has to be careful with which other product is being used in the comparison to ensure equal quality, which is somewhat subjective.
For example, I found detergents at the store that varied up to double in price, so comparing SA8 to the lower priced, lower quality one or the one that was double the price is important. I've never heard anyone say Tide is a scam because it costs twice as much as a generic detergent.
Have you taken into account the recent price reductions?
There is also a big difference between contacting a concentrated material and a diluted one.
IBOFB said he is a founder's 3%.
He moves 100 PV each month personal consumption?
Now if we could only find a blog administrator who could remove ibofb from the planet....
It’s a toss up, but I still think Scam-way cleaners do a better job at removing goat blood from the altar.
As has been well covered elsewhere I have NOT been actively building an Amway business for some time. Does it generate an income for me, yes, however - as I explained, the problem isn't Sydney Schwarz being paid by P&G - the problem is neglecting to mention this while at the same time attacking IBOs for not being "independent". That's outright hypocrisy. By all means mention his price comparisons, but neglecting to mention they are more than a decade old and by someone found to have been paid by the competition verges on deliberate deception. My affiliations with Amway as an IBO are well known and not hidden, heck it's even in the nickname I use. I'm not hiding it. Contrary to the beliefs of some that if you repeat something over and over again it makes it true, I have not been dishonest or deceitful in any of my claims. I've been wrong occasionally, but through honest error, not deliberate ommission or deceit.
Deceit exists however in making claims like "Customers don't care about buying the "cadillac" of vitamins or buying concentrated dish soap. They look at the lowest prices and buy it. Why do you think Walmart is wildly successful? "
Is this true? Does everybody just buy the cheapest? Even a moments thought shows this is simply false. Some people *do* care about buying the best. Many, many folk *don't* buy at Walmart, and Amway products aren't even the most expensive in their categories! Amway Global has explicitedly stated they are not in competition with companies like Wal-mart, yet some would deceitfully continue to make a false comparison claiming they are.
The Amway business is not for everyone, Amway products are not for everyone. And they don't need to be.
Any one considering a business has to asks some simple questions
(1) Are the products any good?
Clearly the answer is yes.
(2) Is there a potential market for the products?
Clearly the answer is yes.
(3) Is there enough potential return on my time and money investment to build a profitable business
Clearly, again, the answer is yes.
You may not like the products, you make think they're overpriced - it doesn't matter. I think coffee is one of the worst drinks on the planet. I feel it tastes and smells disgusting. I'm not so arrogant as to therefore claim nobody would, or should buy coffee.
There's products. There's a market for the products. That means there's a business. That's all that needs to be known, the rest is opinion and fluff. QED
Sydney's data is old, but it is still an excellent resource for anyone interested in this business. It still stands as a solid reference, even if certain Amway reps illegally tried to make people associate Proctor and Gamble with Satanism.
If you can claim your affiliations to Amway are "well known" which seemingly affords you the right to therefore promote Amway endlessly on every website (that is not being in-active), then it can be claimed Sydney's affiliations also are well known, and his data as valid, if not more so.
Typical of cult and generally deceitful debate behaviour you continuously attack the character, not the facts when you have no argument against the overwhelming data.
People see through that smoke screen, and occasionally sue and win in such cases like that of P&G vs Amway distributors.
I agree people don't always want the cheapest. Their products however are marketed as discounted below retail, and as a major reason to join. This is consistently proven to be a lie on many products, and even I am still amazed and admit (still without proof) they can't possibly all be overpriced?
Perhaps foolishly, I still give Amway the benefit of the doubt.
The original article was about a reader being so convinced DD was "much cheaper" and "better", when we proved the exact opposite on both counts. Was Stef deceived into beleiving that, or was she intentionally attempting to deceive others?
The real questions "one considering this business has to ask" are:
1. Will it be easy to market the product knowing it is overpriced and has no physical advantage over the existing competitors? (It even has several disadvantages)
Clearly No
2. Will it be easy to market to people when our company has such a massive stigma attached to it, and we use questionable tactics to recruit customers?
Clearly No
3. Is there enough potential return on my time and money investment to build a profitable business?
Clearly No. 99% of people lose money and fail in this business, and there are so many other better money making opportunities out there. The worlds worst casino gives you better odds at winning money, without losing the respect of your friends and family, and becoming an exceptionally annoying person.
The vast majority of people that buy the products are distributors, not independent consumers. This should give anyone a suggestion at how poor the potential business is if normal people don't want to buy what you're selling. Why make life difficult? Why wouldnt you go with something else where the majority of people can make money, easily?
Of course there is "potential" for marketing these products and making some cash. There is also "potential" that you will win the lotto, become president, and find a cure for cancer all in the same day.
To imply it is a beneficial opportunity for anyone who tries hard enough is deceit at the highest level. It is one of the worst investments in time, effort and social capital anyone could make, and for one of the least returns.
I entirely agree - everyone would be better off playing lotto
IBOFB, Unless you have multiple personality disorder, please stick with the one persona / username on here from now on.
If you do have MPD please seek medical help.
I'm trying to be sympathetic to your opinions and information you may have to offer, but because you tried to post biased material favourable to your cause with multiple usernames (and continuously insult others, and make outrageous claims you rarely back up with any proof), it just makes you and your cause look even guiltier, and makes everyone value your opinion even less, and ends up being deleted.
Mr Million,
Are you saying ibofb posted as hmp1313, then answered himself? If so, this brings into question ibofb's honesty, as if I thought he had any in the first place.
All the evidence makes it seem that way.
Regardless, several comments (which are not constructive, and purely inflammatory remarks or "facts" that were simply deceptive or lies) never made it to public viewing fortunately for our readers. I'm more than happy to have commentary from pro-Amway people as long as it stays at a mature and intelligent level, and statements/reviews are backed up by factual research, not biased hype and nazi style propaganda.
Initially he had something constructive to offer, based in reality, but recently we have exposed his propaganda for what it was. Pathetic.
It's been proven many times that IBOFB is a shameless liar.
Apologies for delay Tex, we can't possibly reply to everyone - we are busy with our life, making money, many beach "meetings", sipping on a mojito etc ;)
You bring up some interesting points
Tex said:
"I found detergents at the store that varied up to double in price, so comparing SA8 to the lower priced, lower quality one or the one that was double the price is important"
Yes, quality is subjective. On the other hand I could demonstrate where several generic items are equal quality or superior.
"I've never heard anyone say Tide is a scam because it costs twice as much as a generic detergent."
Of course. We're not flat out saying something is a scam because it is overpriced, and we never doubted there are possibly some better value/quality products - it is the people that are misleading, deceptive and the scam.
Re: server logs. Obviously we would not make such statements without reviews of the system logs. Previously I had no reason to doubt the credibility of IBOFB - apart from the fact he is not independent of 'the American Way' or Net work 21. (Where does the twentyone come from anyway)
The point of the article was to get people to do their own research, and not fall for the marketing hype when the people spouting it don't believe it themselves, and just get rich off tool scams taking advantage of people for example.
IBOfightback used to post as an anonymous insider on other blogs. He made up BS stories about helping people go diamond, couples quitting because of informational blogs like this one. When his true identity was discovered, we found out that IBOfightback has been pretty much inactive since 1998 so he has accomplished nothing in Amway and tols numerous lies but still he continues to post on just about every blog related to Amway including running 14 or more blogs of his own.
Network 21 is the tool scam owned by LCK Jim Dornan, who got his crank in a vice in 2007 when the UK clamped down on Amway.
After unspecified sales personnel Amway Corp spread rumours that P&G's logo was linked with Satanism, P&G won $19.25m damages in the Satanism defamation case.
If personnel representing Amway make such claims we find it difficult to trust anything else they say.
That was former LCK Randy Haugen. Him and 3 other of his involved diamonds lost the court case.
You can't trust ANYTHING an LCK says.
i dont care about the price, question is for example if i buy let us say colgate toothpaste for the next 100 years do i get a residual income or a money going back to me in my pocket? thats the reason for recession. money is not circulating. after these big companies enjoy a lavish party the government will bail them out using tax payers money. in amway you buy now later on something will go back to you. its like youre planting a seed.
Hernani said:"i dont care about the price".
If you don't care how expensive and overpriced something is then you clearly have no concept of a good investment, and have no right to give financial advice.
The global economic crisis is an interesting point.
It was caused by greedy companies and citizens/investors who were preyed on and taken advantage of by the greedy corporations who would go to any length to get more new customers, encouraging them to make stupid investments on overpriced products, the system could not be sustained, and collapsed...
Sounds exactly like another company we know ;)
hc,
You're stupid. Price DOES matter, and is why Amway is dropping a lot of the outside vendor catalog items. By the way, the upline is looking for more people like you, who don't have ANY business sense, that way they can scam you on tools as well. How do you expect to be able to sell the required products to customers in order to receive your downline volume bonus, if the prices are too high?
Click on my name for the tool scam facts.
Hi guys...I'm not much of a serious discuss-er...er...Yes I have bad English. So what.
Anyways
For pure facts
I just want to know. I'm going back to this site...maybe several days later or so.
If you compare something like triple shield echinacea, I mean...the whole Nutrilite thing is supposed to be 100% organic with organic farm and yada yada yada...So what makes echinacea better than other products? I'm trying my best to use 100% facts and no emotion. If I make emotional claims please tell me. I'm not perfect.
Here goes:
Ok, my parents are Amway distributors, and I'm not entirely sure what to do. I've gotten quite a bad cough once, I could hardly speak when I woke up in the morning...after eating a bag of chips or something at the night...and not drinking water...(forgot). So i had a bad cough in the morning. Then my parents asked me to take echinacea 3x3, breakfast lunch dinner, and the next day most of the cough was gone. The day after it was gone completely. Source: Personal experience. May or may not be reliable due to body uniqueness. Although it has happened to more than one people. Possibly (POSSIBLY) a lot. Otherwise people wouldn't use it. So, if we look at other echinacea products, I don't know any of them. So, what difference is there in effect? Because I once counted that one tablet of echinacea cost about Rp 5000, Indonesian currency converted to approx 50 cents US. One tablet around 50 cents US. So, if I eat 3x3, that means 9. So $4.50 a day. And its cured. Usually, before my parents signed up, I often went to the doctor etc etc. now-days, one meeting to the doc with the medicine, cost me about (cost my parents) Rp150 000, about 15 bucks. So...and yea it works in about 1 day its better and in 2 its out. Same effectiveness as echinacea. But then...well yea...I mean echinacea is claimed by Amway and legally authorized (There's a certificate) to be "organic". So yea I've said before organic farms yada2... So I'm looking for comments on that...Feed Back? Criticism? Whatever...just food for thought...I mean...never hurts to get more info. If I draw conclusions I would be using emotion so I won't. As a summary:
Facts:
Echinacea approx 1 tablet 50 cents.
Status: Higher price than other echinacea products.
Effectiveness: 3x3 a day and MOSTLY cured. "Mostly" being its not as bad, and the day after that its gone (cough). Maybe 6x3 if you count 2 days. So that totals 9 dollars?
Doctors bill: 15 dollars US. About the average price for a docs visit (in my country).
Effectiveness: 2-3 days. Same thing.
Quality. I'm not a scientist. You decide on this.
Hoping for replies soon.
I have a complaint about Amway products.
I was a consumer of their products, I used XS Energy drink and I felt very very sick, and had heart palpitations.
The energy drink tastes disgusting, and because I felt ill after consuming I definitely had no energy.
Do they use the same ingredients worldwide?
Any one here try to use the product and compare them? I mean to really try all the products and feel the difference?
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